Dr. Martin Rosen:

Hello, I’m Dr. Dr. Martin Rosen with my wife here, Dr. Dr. Nancy Watson. And today we’ll be mapping facial distortion patterns on the 15-Minute Matrix.

Andrea Nakayama:

Welcome to the 15-Minute Matrix. I’m Andrea Nakayama, Functional Medicine Nutritionist and your host. This is the podcast that brings you bite-sized insights and lessons on the clinical relevance of the functional nutrition matrix, the most important tool and functional medicine and functional nutrition. The matrix is so important, not only because it invites us to stop and assess, but also because it reminds us of three very important factors in our care, our recommendations, and our outcomes. Everything is connected. We are all unique and all things matter. Be sure to head over to this episode’s show notes at 15minutematrix.com. If you’d like to see today’s topic mapped on a downloadable matrix to remind you of these critical aspects of care. Today on the 15-Minute Matrix, I’ll be speaking with Dr. Dr. Martin Rosen and Dr. Dr. Nancy Watson. Drs. Rosen and Watson are 1981’s summa cum laude graduates of Life Chiropractic College. Since 1982, they have maintained a private practice in Wellesley, Massachusetts.

Besides their practice, they’ve traveled nationally and internationally teaching chiropractic technique, pediatrics, cranial adjusting, chiropractic philosophy and practice management. Together, they also run the Peak Potential Institute offering premier educational programs for healthcare professionals. Their most recent book, It’s All in the Head, was written to inform and bring awareness of the implications of growth and developmental challenges in the early stages of childhood development. The book strives to assist parents in answering the question “is my child’s development normal?” Their book empowers parents with the ability to understand normal developmental milestones and to recognize problems in the earliest stages, allowing them to seek appropriate care before problems become entrenched and create diagnosable dis-ease processes. They are dedicated to giving chiropractors, healthcare providers and parents a new perspective when it comes to children’s health. Through their combined 80 years of teaching, writing and clinical experience, they’ve brought a unique insight, motivation, and support to thousands of individuals on numerous fields.

Hello, Dr. Marty and Dr. Nancy. Welcome to the 15-Minute Matrix.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

Thank you. Thanks for having us

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Thank you, Andrea. It’s great being here again.

Andrea Nakayama:

Fun to have both of you here. I always love these conversations that take me well out of my comfort zone of understanding and Dr. Rosen, you certainly do that in the most fascinating ways. I’m wondering if you could kick us off or if you could both kick us off by talking about what fascial distortion patterns are.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Sure. If you think of your body at different layers of sheaths, the fascia is a sheath that covers over the muscles, attaches to the nerves, attaches to the bones. It’s like this entire sheath that covers the body that maintains tension, maintains function, helps with neurological input, helps with what we call the dural meningeal system. It helps with muscle movement. It’s a sheath that has a certain amount of tension that is supposed to be represented throughout the body. If there’s too little or too much, it can create not only distortion patterns but neurological deficits and functional and biomechanical deficits.

Andrea Nakayama:

How does that relate to pain and pain reception?

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Anything that happens in your body by the third trimester pregnancy, you already have learned as a fetus to distinguish pain and pleasure. Any input that you get into your body, whether it be an external or an internal input, your body delineates it as either a pain or pleasure sensation. And obviously our goal in life usually is to avoid the pain and to find things that cause pleasure. Anything that happens to the fascia system that it feels as an insult or a positive, it processes it through the brain in that way and creates reactive compensatory patterns based on if they’re good or bad input to the brain and how it functions and how it sees those inputs.

Andrea Nakayama:

It’s really fascinating when we think about chronic pain and its connection to fascia, but I’m wondering if you could speak into more about how this relates to the fascial distortion patterns. I understand the fascia, and I’m still working my way towards those distortion patterns.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Two things, tension in the system through the fascia and the dural meningeal system controls also the nervous system. Too much or too little tension, think of your body as a tuned instrument, and if you have a guitar string and you have a tuning fork at the end and you turn that tuning fork too loose or too tight, you change the tone of the string and you get it basically off-key. In your body there is fascial and dural systems attached to the cranium and attached all the way down to the tailbone, and then they attach to all the vertebral bodies and all the nerves as it comes down the spine. And all those implement the amount of tension that that system has. If you create too much tension, for example, a baby or a person who’s always tense, really tight, really what we call sympathetic dominant has a hypersensitivity because the system’s too high tuned.

It’s like if you tune your guitar string too tight and you start to play it snaps. The nervous system kind of does that. Matter of fact, they say that one of the most traumatic and damaging things to a nerve is to cause too much tension in it. A system that’s heightened in tension doesn’t have the same threshold in a system that has a normal tension, it tends to break down faster. It tends to be insulted more by pain. It tends to react to hypersensitivity more. Again, it loses its threshold to deal with stress and adapt.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

One of the things that spurred Dr. Marty and I to really explore this was when we were visiting Texas in 2019 and we went into a toy store and we saw babies, dolls that were very distorted, distorted faces. They were stuck in what we call flexion. And I looked and I thought, “Wow, this is how babies are coming into the world in this sympathetic state.” And what we see in our practice and what we focus on in us is this drill stress that’s happening from the moment that we’re born, possibly even before we’re born. That’s one of the things that we notice is that babies are being born to a sympathetic state. They’re carrying that through. They have developmental milestones when their nervous system is developing. We’re really focusing on trying to correct these problems to be able to call attention to them.

Many of the new mothers that are coming in are noticing this, and babies are inconsolable. They don’t sleep, they can’t eat. That’s one of the things that we are noticing a lot more of. Maybe it’s always been there, but what we notice is that once, say the industry of the toy industry starts making babies that are distorted, it tells me that what is not normal because it’s common is becoming normal. We’re normalizing these distortion patterns and that’s all in the fascia, and that’s in the first two years of life. That’s what we’re noticing and what we’re really focusing on in our practice is trying to help these young mothers and these young babies have a better start to unwind their nervous system, to unwind their fascia.

Andrea Nakayama:

Oh my gosh, I have so many questions. Now, what does that look like to you? When you walked into that toy store, what does that even look like?

Dr. Nancy Watson:

I took pictures of all of those dolls. I was actually so upset because having had children, I know it’s not normal to be stuck in these distorted patterns or faces that are distorted. I actually took pictures of all of them and said to myself, “I can’t let people think this is normal.” It’s common, but it’s not normal.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

If you take the Barbie doll image that in our generation people grew up with the Barbie doll thinking that’s what women or men if you want to take the Ken doll supposed to look like. I think that was part of the issue that created a lot of this body dysmorphia. As kids got older, they were like, “This is what I’m supposed to look like. I don’t look like that.” And now what Nancy said is we see these babies because people who are producing these things are basically taking a general view of the population and modifying it to fit some particular marketing paradigm. And now what we’re doing is becoming more accepting of just what Nancy said of things that are common as normal. For example, let’s just take neurodevelopmental issues. We got out of school, people on the autism spectrum were one in 2,500, now they’re one in

42.

And people just going, “That’s just the way it is.” And now we just keep changing the names. Now we can’t call them on the spectrum. Now they’re neurodevelopmentally challenged. We keep giving them names. But according to Health and Human Services, 54% of our kids have chronic illnesses. And out of the 54% of a high percentage of that is neurodevelopmental issues. What we see in our practices are kids who, they’re constipated, they can’t go to the bathroom, they have trouble nursing, they can’t sleep at night. The parents are really stressed, they’re inconsolable. Their whole system is tense. They’re not reaching their milestones. They can’t do tummy time, they cry in tummy time. They can’t roll over at the right time. It’s just a whole plethora of things that we’re seeing. And we’ve been in practice 40 years, I don’t think it’s always been there because there’s always been, in pediatric practice, it’s much more prevalent.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

It’s not the focus exclusively pediatrics. It’s one of the things that we know that we can have the greatest effect on because we know that we can unwind the nervous system of a baby much easier than we can unwind the nervous system of a fifty-year-old. Back to the whole fascia thing. It shows up. It shows up as distortions in the cranium, whether it be what people call flat spots.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

The American Pediatric Association says 47% of kids now are born with cranial distortions. That’s what they recognize. 47% of kids born in some kind of cranial distortion patterns, and a lot of it has to do with lifestyle things, putting kids in carriers and car seats, forcing them to sleep on their back. All that creates molding of the cranium. And once the cranium distorts because the fascia attaches and the dura attaches that it then distorts the fascia. And then again, that reflexes into the muscular system, skeletal system and neurological system. Our systems in our body are not independent. They’re interrelated.

It’s like hit your toe. When you stub your toe, how long does it take for you to know that? And these are all trained and the kids, the other thing we see is reflexes, primal reflexes are all designed to protect you as a child so that you can respond to the environment.

Andrea Nakayama:

You can survive.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Reflex level and survive. But there’s a certain point where they’re supposed to stop. And what happens a lot with these kids who are in these survival modes or what we call sympathetic dominant, is the primal reflexes remain. And they react in the rest of their life in a fight or flight state because they never got rid of those primal reflexes.

Andrea Nakayama:

And we know that’s going to impact the immune system and the whole nervous system and the hormones, and it’s just a cascade from there.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

Exactly. And for me, I know when I was a new mom, it was really important for me to know what was expected or what was going to be the norm. The body does respond. The babies do grow up and have developmental milestones, and they’re supposed to hit them within certain periods of time. For me, I was driven when I saw these distorted dolls, I was like, “I need to let people know that this is not normal, that children should not look like this and there’s something they can do about it.” That was the driving force for Marty and I to put together a book last year and to give parents a guideline of like, “This is where you should be in. This is the place that you’re looking for. Your babies want to hit these milestones within this period of time. The cranium should look like this.” Parents want to know that.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

I also think parents are always striving in most cases, to get their kids’ potential optimized. No one wants to settle with your kid. It’s like, “It’s okay if you’re … It’s okay. We live in the Metro West area outside of Boston so it’s a very competitive area.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

Very educated.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

20 minutes from Harvard, 20 minutes from MIT, Wellesley College. It’s just like a plethora of brainiacs here. No one goes with their kid, “It’s okay if he can’t add at 15.” And I’m just talking about nervous system development. People don’t want to settle and what’s happening, I think the CDC just came out with reduced guidelines and what we’re seeing in the global world is people are becoming more accepting of decreased function, and that’s not okay with us. And that was never okay when we raised our kids. If you talk to our kids, they might think we may have pushed a little harder than we should have at certain points, but great. But our goal was always the same, to optimize your potential so that you’re on your own you can function as best you possibly can. And I was saying that to a son of our friend.

I said, “We watch the Olympics.” I was always into sports. I love the Olympics. I said, “If we were watching Olympics every year and we started to see people running slower, swimming slower, not jumping as high, would it be okay with that?” The new world record is now you don’t have to run a under ten second a hundred yard dash, now you can run a 12 one in a 12 second. It’d be fine. We wouldn’t accept that with our athletes. We wouldn’t accept people watch them. Why were we accepting our kids saying, “Don’t worry if they don’t cross that milestone, they’ll catch up later.” Or, “It’s not a big deal if your neurological development is being stunted.” I think that’s the crux of why we did it. It was like, “No, we can’t keep accepting our generation’s decreasing neurological function,” because as you said, it ties into the immune system. I’m sure in your world you see kids with more immune system issues and more allergies. Every kid has an allergy, and when I was growing up, I never thought peanuts could kill.

Andrea Nakayama:

I want to talk about the milestones, but what do you think are the antecedent, what’s happening in utero or do you know or can you guess that’s causing babies to be born with this facial distortion?

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Several things are happening in utero. I think number one, birth has become a medical procedure now. It’s like it’s not even considered a natural process. It’s treated as a disease. I think that these constant ultrasounds over and over again, checking ultrasounds have an effect on the fetus. We know that. We’ve seen it. Ultrasounds have an effect. Constant ultrasounds, stresses in parents, not being able to take care of themselves, poor dietary choices. There’s a whole plethora of things. The amount of stress that’s out there just in the world, all that affects the fetus as it grows, we know for years, even just the music you play to a baby affects some of their neurological development.

You have a stressed parent, you have poor nutrition, you have environmental factors. I don’t want to go into a whole lot of it, but people have talked about electromagnetic fields. In the 1930s, chiropractors were writing about electromagnetic fields causing cancer and damage, and now basically, you can’t get away from it. You’re surrounded by them. Like I said, we live outside of Boston. It’s a very deeply seated medical area. And I’ve had patients come into their firstborn and the doctor’s saying, “If you don’t go into labor one day after your due date, we’re going to induce you.” We see that all the time and the amount of stress like, “I have to be done on my due date.”

Dr. Nancy Watson:

I also think, and they’re not letting women be empowered by their pregnancy. I think that’s a big piece of it. It’s like it’s a very powerful process to go through, carrying a baby and delivering a baby. And women have to be empowered by that. When you make it a medical condition and put all this fear into a woman that she doesn’t have the ability to give birth naturally or the way that she chooses, I think it’s very damaging.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

And even rates like C-section rates are up to as high as 38%. In the sixties and seventies, C-section rate was 6%. Everybody thinks, “C-section is easy. We cut the mom open and take the baby out.” It’s like, “No, that’s a horrific process, not only to the mom, but there’s no contractions. The baby’s head doesn’t get molded correctly.”

Andrea Nakayama:

And then so much guilt around it all too, depending on what choices you make. And it’s interesting because there’s this pendulum effect. We’ve certainly advanced in our medical technologies, and some would say that’s beneficial and for some things in acute care it is. But for what’s healthy development like through pregnancy, the invasion of the medical advancements is causing what you’re saying are some of these developments that we’re seeing.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

I think medicine has advanced extremely in its emergency, intensive procedures and intervention protocols, but has not in its supportive protocols. Matter of fact, it’s overridden them and it’s made it a sickness care system instead of a healthcare system. And we are just here to deal with your emergency and we’re going to create fear around it, and you have to have these certain parameters, and there’s just not a lot of expansiveness in a lot of cases. I’m sure that’s not true everywhere, but as a generality, it’s become, like I said, everything’s a procedure based on what if you don’t do this and what if this happened?

Dr. Nancy Watson:

It’s a fear-based system, and I do think that there’s no other place to be in a state of emergency than be in the medical care, but pregnancy should not be a state of emergency, and I think that’s the message that they give.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

That’s true.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

They don’t give women the confidence that they can deliver. It’s hard. We have a lot of moms that don’t buy into that and they’re choosing other things.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

I think one of the most appalling terms I heard in the last couple of years is geriatric pregnancy.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

Yes.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

I’m like, “Oh my God, if you’re 35,” I’m nowhere near 35 anymore. And I’m in the, maybe if I got pregnant, I’d be a geriatric pregnancy. But a 35-year-old woman who’s choosing to either wait a little bit in her life or whatever it is and gets pregnant at 35, she’s now classified as a geriatric pregnancy, which puts her under a whole list of things that you have to be careful of. I’m like, “That’s to me insane.”

Dr. Nancy Watson:

We’ve had women that have had babies in their mid-forties. We had one that came in as your late forties. It can be a very empowering experience. And when you take that away from a woman, I do think that affects what we were talking about before, the fetus, the neurological development, how babies are born. Are they being born into a state of fear? Are they being born into a state of emergency? I think that affects how their nervous system will then respond.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

And the birth process itself, to go back to the distortion pattern, part of the idea of the birth process is the baby starts in utero and then goes through the transition as it goes down the birth canal and as it’s going down the birth canal, the contractions and the pressure on the cranium is increased tenfold. It goes from 10 millimeters of mercury in the uterus to 100 millimeters during transition, and there’s a reason for that.

The reason for that, and if you look at a baby’s cranium, is for the cranium to compress and to basically what we call prime the pump of the primary respiratory mechanism. That whole molding process and that whole compression force is basically priming the baby to come out of the uterus and take its first breath. When that process is interfered with, let’s say even with Pitocin, when it becomes too intense or rush or the baby’s left to crown and they put forceps on or vacuum delivery or anything where the doctor or the nurse or whoever’s wanting gets in a distress state and then puts that distress state into the mother and then the process stops, that’s a problem.

There have been studies that show that the transition period that coming down the birth canal not only creates molding, but if that process is abnormal, it can create cranial distortions, spinal distortions, especially the upper cervical spine. That process is important to allow to unfold in the way it’s supposed to unfold as well.

Andrea Nakayama:

I want to talk about some of these milestones. We will link to the book in the show notes, but what are some of the key milestones that we should keep an eye out for?

Dr. Martin Rosen:

The number one milestone, which I actually was talking to a doula the other day, which I thought was amazing. She said, the first milestone is the baby’s ability to turn head down inside the uterus, but then when they come out the next milestone, within the first month to maximum 3 months, they should be able to lift their head. Then the next milestone is for them to be able to turn over and that again, somewhere to 3 – 4 months to roll from back to front and front to back. Then from that milestone, it should be sitting up, and that comes somewhere between around 5 – 7 months. And then from the sitting up, the next milestone is either creeping like an army creep on your belly and then crawling on your hands and knees, and that again, somewhere in the first 9 – 10 months that should happen.

And then we come to standing and then walking in a balanced mode with your hands at your side, and that’s usually around 11 – 13 months. And then by 17 months or 18 months, the baby should be able to walk and ambulate by themselves comfortably without holding hands, without being in balance mode. And what’s important about these milestones is not only that they occur, but they’re pre-programmed to nervous system, and they’re programmed to fire off at specific times. If that’s not happening, that usually means there’s some kind of problem interference in the nervous system that’s stopping those milestones from appearing at the right times.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

And what the CDC just did maybe a month ago is actually changed the milestones. And I think they changed the milestone in response to the children weren’t hitting them. Now, whether that it was because of the situation we’ve had in the last two years with the COVID and how things have changed, but they actually eliminated crawling as a milestone.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

As a necessary milestone.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

And they also changed when the speech is developed. They just changed it. They moved them out. And our concern about that is that first of all, they are pre-programmed, they are something that we go through naturally, but changing the milestones for the kids who are delayed, it’s not a good idea to make that normal. We’re going back to that whole idea of make normalizing just because it’s common and children are being more challenged now. They’re delayed speaking, everything is being delayed. We need to look at why that’s happening rather than normalizing it.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

And their rationale, their major rationale, if you read through all their literature, which is what we talked about as human potential, the rationale, was that they were finding that only 50% of the kids were hitting the milestones that were already set, and pre-programmed, therefore they found that was a problem. They lowered them. Now 75% of the kids are hitting the milestones. That’s saying like saying, “You go to school and 60 is a passing grade, but only 50% of the kids are passing. So now 50 is the passing grade.” Now we get more kids that are reaching their milestones and everybody’s, “Happy,” but what we’ve done is lower the bar.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

And the problem with that with parents, like say parents whose children are challenged for whatever reason, they usually get service based on this. If they normalize things, they won’t be able to get their speech therapy or their OT, there’s an economic factor to that that concerns us.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

And one of the other things, they reduce the amount of words that kids have to speak by age two. If you’ve had kids masked for the last two years and they are learning to speak, of course it’s going to reduce their ability to speak. Again, adapting abnormal consequences of the environment to making them normal is the thing that really scares us the most.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

Exactly.

Andrea Nakayama:

There’s such important points here, and I love how you’re weaving together the work that we do, what’s happening, and I love those conversations where we link back these cultural norms to health and healthcare. I’m wondering what we do about it, and I know you do the hands-on work, but in terms of access and what we can all do, where my mind is going is support through pregnancy, normalizing it, as you said, and working with the nervous system of the parents and the diet and the lifestyle and how we bring that back to a normal, not medical process and how that can make a difference right there. But what else can we do in addition to or in lieu of the hands-on work to make a difference here?

Dr. Martin Rosen:

As practitioners, I think our other job is to educate and to educate in an objective manner. Nancy and I, we have certain parameters and beliefs that we feel are true, and we both agree that if the world listened to us, it would be a better place. There’s no doubt about that. But on the other hand, when I’m dealing with patients, my goal always is to just feed information, almost like drip it in, because you can’t just sit there and pontificate at them.

I try and give them, if a mom can’t nurse or chooses not to nurse and they’re on a formula and they’re using one of the over-the-counter formulas that are toxic, I’ll say, “Look, here’s a website that offers other formulas. This is what’s in these formulas. Just look on the back of that formula, read it and tell me if that sounds like food to you.” To move them that way, “Oh, my baby’s not sleeping at night. They’re screaming in the other room.” Say, “Maybe it’d be a good idea to maybe move the bassinet into your bedroom so that the baby will feel close.” Just give them little pieces of information or when it comes to as they’re out of the utero, they’re having developmental issues, talk to them about certain games they can play with their babies, how they can facilitate crawling, how they can facilitate turning over.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

It’s about educating and empowering.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

That’s a big thing.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

The last thing that we do is ever shame somebody for the decisions they made. We know that no parent or no person purposely hurts themselves or hurts their baby. There’s some distortion there to begin with. For us, it’s about educating and empowering them to take responsibility for their life, for their child, for what’s going on. And we can’t change what’s already happened. We can only move forward with what we can do. There’s suffering. We try to relieve the suffering, and we do that by empowering them because we don’t want to take responsibility for someone else’s healing, but we want them to be responsible for their decision.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

They really need to be able to make the choice, and that’s the most power.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

Exactly.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Even in our practice, when it comes to recommendations for care, it’s about giving people honest information, allowing them to make the decision because that empowers them. They’ve made that decision. We’ll facilitate. When I’m done talking to a patient, I usually give them three options. Option one is you can leave the office now, you might not feel comfortable here. Option two would be to follow my recommendations to the fullest, or option three will be fit into these recommendations, how it fits your lifestyle. And that’s the thing with all information I give people, it’s like, “This is what we’ve learned. This is what we’ve gleaned from years of experience. Try this if your baby gets better than accept it. Sometimes, there was a great quote by Bruce Lipton, and I’ll probably paraphrase it, but he said, “Drugs are designed to allow people to continue with the same lifestyle they have and not make changes, but to continue that lifestyle.”

Andrea Nakayama:

Such a good point there. And I think you’re talking to my favorite three E’s, empathy, education, and empowerment. Those are the E’s we need in healthcare. Any final notes that you can share with our listeners about the importance of what you’re talking about here?

Dr. Martin Rosen:

It’s the first two years of life that you’re laying down your child’s foundation. 80 – 90% of the functional capacity and the tools, materials that they’re going to have in their nervous system for the rest of life is actually formed and laid down in those first two years. That’s a really important time to actually listen to yourself. Moms more so than dads, I hate to say, but moms have, they know when things are wrong. They know when people are lying to them. Trust your intuition. Try and push away the fear. Trust your intuition. If you see something, it’s like we say in the airports now, if you see something, say something. If you see something that you’re not clear with your baby, find someone who will listen to you. They don’t have to agree with you, but at least support your foundation and help evaluate that so that you can feel clear and comfortable with what decisions you made. That’s what I think.

Dr. Nancy Watson:

I totally agree. I feel like it’s growing in acceptance and educating people. I totally agree with that.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

We have kids. We all have kids, and it’s like we lay down the foundation, we feed into them our values, our morals, our ethics, all that, and then they take what they want and they move with it. But the goal is to give your kids the greatest opportunity to be whoever they’re going to be in their lives. And again, even the first six years, by age six, they have then developed a nervous system that they can live with for the rest of their lives, barring any major trauma. That’s your window of opportunity to make the impact. If you have teenagers, try and tell your fourteen-year-old what to do.

Andrea Nakayama:

Beautiful. It’s a good point.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

Good luck.

Andrea Nakayama:

Thank you both for sharing your wisdom with us today.

Dr. Martin Rosen:

And thank you Andrea for having us. It was great. We love what you do and we really appreciate you allowing us to speak too at this point in time.

Andrea Nakayama:

The 15-Minute Matrix is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Nakayama, and the Functional Nutrition Alliance. The podcast is edited and mixed by Brian Pake of Pacific Audio. And special thanks to Natalie Merrill, Alia Hale, Pamela Geismar and Rowan Bradley for their support in making the 15-Minute Matrix possible. You can find episodes on all kinds of topics with more incredible guests at our podcast website, 15minutematrix.com, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you’d like to see the completed Functional Nutrition Matrix that accompanies today’s or any episode, be sure to head over to the podcast website. Again that’s 15minutematrix.com. We love when you share our episodes with your friends and colleagues, leave a review and rate the show, that helps us to grow our collective message that functional nutrition is the future of healthcare. Also, be sure to follow us on Instagram @functionalnutritionalliance, and you can follow me @AndreaNakayama. And if you or someone you know is interested in becoming a functional nutrition counselor, head over to fxnutrition.com to learn more about our Full Body Systems program. Full Body Systems is our ten-month emerging course where you’ll learn the systems-based approach to addressing the root causes of your client’s issues through client education, diet, and lifestyle modification. Again, you can always learn more at fxnutrition.com.